re: The alternative to medical abortion

Quoting Satan:“ Show where you got this from. This seems like BS to me.”

It the stats from russia. Russian abortion clinics made a video. I can post it.

I wasn't really looking at the Obama knock. But that was the first time I seen what a partial abortion was. That is sick. I don't feel that should be legal and at any point in pregnancy. That is what gets me.

I can't see how a doctor can hold a baby, moving at that. Then suck its brains out, eck.

http://www.lib.utah.edu/epubs/undergrad/vol7/kotlyar.html





In 1920, Russia's law on abortion became one of the most progressive in the world.2 The legalization of abortions presented women with an option to terminate pregnancies at state hospitals without cost.3 This policy was maintained until 1936 when Stalin, in an effort to raise the birthrate to create more workers and soldiers, outlawed abortions. However, education about contraception and family planning was not provided and women who needed a termination continued to rely on the method with which they were familiar and upon which they often had depended--abortion.
Illegal abortions flourished as Stalin's attempt to increase the birthrate failed. The birthrate remained low because of illegal abortions that limited family, but also harmed women's health.4 Infant and maternal mortality rates began to increase and, as a result, abortion was relegalized in November 1955 with the reasoning that it was a necessary evil,5 "necessary to prevent the carnage of illegal abortions and to help keep women in the labor force."6
Induced abortion is and continues to be the principal method of birth control in Russia. The first official abortion statistics emerged only in September 1988.7 For the late 1980's, they show six to seven million induced abortions performed annually.8 The figures for 1992 show only 3.5 million abortions performed annually.9 From first glance it seems that the number of abortions in Russia is significantly decreasing. This is not true. The official abortion statistics are low due to the introduction of mini-abortions, performed by vacuum aspiration or extraction, which were not regularly registered. In reality, in 1992 there were an estimated 224.6 abortions for 100 live births.10
The legalization of abortion, allowing women to terminate pregnancy at state hospitals and clinics free of charge, may suggest that there are few illegal abortions. However, this is dramatically not the case; for every 2-7 legal terminations there is one illegal abortion.11 Even though illegal abortions are punishable by law, in 1990 there were 172 persons convicted of performing illegal abortions; 91 of them repeated the offense and had caused serious consequences for the patient.12
It is officially recognized that the length of hospital waiting lists is one reason for illegal abortions.13 Another deterrent is the patient's inability to keep her hospital visit confidential. Coworkers will learn of her visit because doctors are required to record "abortion" on the certificate of temporary incapacity from work as the reason for her absence. Overall, the health service terminations are unsatisfactory due to the quality of care given. Underlying the poor and sometimes appalling quality of care are shortages of anesthetics, a "conveyor belt" approach, and the indifference, if not callousness, of the health service staff.14
Olga Lipovskaya, 35 years old, married three times, two children, and seven abortions: "You stand in line before the door of the operating room, seven or eight of you, waiting to be taken in. The clinic's staff is too busy to do anything but operate, so as each woman who's finished staggers out you take turns getting out of line for a few minutes, just to help her get to the resting room down the hall. Then it's your turn, and you go into a hall splattered with blood where two doctors are aborting seven or eight women at the same time; they're usually very rough and rude, shouting at you about keeping your legs wide open...if you're lucky they give you a little sedative, mostly Valium. Then it's your turn to stagger out to the resting room, where you're not allowed to spend more than two hours because the production line, you see, is always very busy." Olga estimates that she will have about fourteen abortions in total, which she guesses to be the national average. She knows women who have had twenty-five.15
Today abortions can also be done in commercial clinics as an alternative to the hospital. Dmitry Cezov, a physician in St. Petersburg's Military Medical Hospital and Clinic, believes that there has been an increase in the abortion rate. He attributes it not only to the high cost of living which makes having a child a luxury, but also to the commercial abortion clinics. One can speculate that these clinics allow women to terminate pregnancy without the "production line," the lengthy hospital waiting lists, or the issues of confidentiality. Also, as these clinics are not free of charge, the facility may be quite contemporary and have more available anesthetics. So, how much? Olga, a tour guide in Moscow, remarks that the cost is a function of the how modern the facility is, whether anesthetics are used, and whether the services are advertised.
A biologist, age 27: "I was in my third month when I decided to have an abortion. It would have been better to have given birth! It was awful: neither Novocain nor a local anesthetic helped. I felt everything...how they changed instruments, how they scraped. You sit there...and can do nothing. After the abortion, I lost 10 kilos."16




This says that a lot of the reasons for abortions....is the inability to get education on less invasive and less dangerous methods of birth control...not to mention the fact that a lot of them get illegal abortions even though they have access to legal abortions because they can't keep their doctor visits a secret.

When abortions were ILLEGAL there...MANY women died as a result of illegal abortions. Is that really what America wants in it's future?

Quoting Gabby311:“ It the stats from russian. Russian abortion clinics made a video. I can post it. I wasn't really ... [snip!] ... a partial abortion was. That is sick. I don't feel that should be legal and at any point in pregnancy. That is what gets me.”

There are many states that they will not perform them unless the mother's life is at risk. The reason Obama is against a ban on them is becuase it starts a slippery slope of anti-abortion legislation getting through, peice by piece. It also doesnt allow of exemption for babies with horrific medical issues. I have a friend who was told that her daughter had a severe heart defect in utero, and it was too late to terminate. She didnt want to, but let me tell you she was livid that she didnt have the option. Her and her husabnd were both mentally and financially able to care for the baby, others may not have been so lucky.

Quoting Satan:“ http://www.lib.utah.edu/epubs/undergrad/vol7/kotlyar.html In 1920, Russia's law on abortion became ... [snip!] ... were ILLEGAL there...MANY women died as a result of illegal abortions. Is that really what America wants in it's future?”

LOL thats alot to read. But I don't think it should be illegal. But the stats in russia are high, yikes.

That partial abortion thing has scarred me. Thats intense, really hard to be okay with, ya know?

Quoting Dev22:“ There are many states that they will not perform them unless the mother's life is at risk. The reason ... [snip!] ... option. Her and her husabnd were both mentally and financially able to care for the baby, others may not have been so lucky.”

Partial abortion is really sad, not that they all aren't. But isn't there another way? Wow, just to have everything out but the head. Then to scissor into its head and suck out its brains. Moving in the doctors arms, then goes limp. tear

Quoting Gabby311:“ LOL thats alot to read. But I don't think it should be illegal. But the stats in russia are high, yikes. ... [snip!] ... in russia are high, yikes. That partial abortion thing has scarred me. Thats intense, really hard to be okay with, ya know?”

Oh I know. Trust me. But I also cant be OK with this right being chipped away at either.

Quoting Dev22:“ Oh I know. Trust me. But I also cant be OK with this right being chipped away at either.”

I could be okay with a partial abortion being illegal, after seeing what takes place. Atleast not at any point in pregnancy. If I had my way, I would take all the little unwanted babies. I can't do that. So I will try to not think about it. No matter how I feel. A womans body, is a womans body. I still feel that it is no longer just her body when she becomes pregnant. But that is jmo, everyone has their own views on it. Its an endless argument. So I boil it down to, to each their own. I don't have to live with that for the rest of my life, so I will not judge anyone. However, I do not agree with it.

I don't think abortion should be illegal, except partial birth. Everyone has their reasons for having it done. I could never have it done,unless it was life threatening to me, because I do have other children that need their mother around. Everyone has a right to do what that they will with their own bodies.

How can anyone watch a film like that or see the pictures of the tiny dismembered bodies and think this should be legal? How on earth can something like this be right? Its so horrible. How can anyone especially a mother after knowing what it feels like to hold their own child think that any child should end up like this?

Quoting KristenCT:“ I just find the whole thing sad, I know I have commented in a previous abortion post and I was maybe ... [snip!] ... cause it is horrible. (there is no reason why the last sentence is in italics my son just pushed something and I can't fix it)”

While I understand what you are saying, your baby still IS a parasite. It's not a pejorative, it's a medical term.

C.

Quoting KristenCT:“ How can anyone watch a film like that or see the pictures of the tiny dismembered bodies and think this ... [snip!] ... especially a mother after knowing what it feels like to hold their own child think that any child should end up like this?”

How? Because we know what the alternative is when abortion is illegal, and it's a LOT worse for the fetus. A lot worse. We would rather see a fetus killed in a clinic by a trained doctor than poked to death by a woman with a coat hanger.

You're just caught up on the fact that "zomg it's legal", well let me ask you this. If it was illegal, and say even only half of the women who abort now do so illegally, that's still 600,000 illegal abortions. Are you going to bitch that your taxes are now paying for their stay in prison on their murder charges? I bet you will. I bet you'll be out on the street picketing to have your taxes lowered.

Well, you can't have it both ways.

Either you keep it legal, and women get safe abortions, or you make it illegal, women keep having abortions, but they're worse and less safe for both the women AND the fetus (who still dies, you didn't save the fetus by making abortion illegal, you just forced the mother to kill it a lot more inhumanely. Good job, by the way. I'm sure the fetus appreciates it) and now your taxes have gone through the roof housing them.

But, I suppose you don't think of ANY of that when you cry that it should be illegal, right?

Oh, and if you think women are going to let you get away with a veiled comment about there being something wrong with someone who is pro-choice and a mother, well, you're quite naive.

See, many of us look at our children and think "what if my son hadn't been born to me who loves him, but to one of those people on parentsbehavingbadly.com who would have beaten him and killed him at six weeks of age, and damn, I honestly wish they had killed him in the uterus before he came out and had to be put through that torture".

It's because we care so damned much for the welfare of LIVING, BREATHING children that we're pro-choice.

C.

Quoting broken hearted mom:“ I am not going to waste my time going back and forth on this and as for growing up and being adults, ... [snip!] ... pregnany, they may want to consider mental health problems too. Gee, some people think of abortion as their new birth control!”

I have read a few posts from this debate, and learning from my mistakes from not getting my facts right about the pot and pregnancy debate, i think you should get your facts right on this debate... what if a woman was raped and got pregnant? and couldn't face the thought of bringing that child into the world with the constant reminder of how the child was concieved? some women do keep their baby from a result of being raped and they must be extreamly strong minded to do so.
Every woman deals with situations her own way and we will never agree with everyone on this earth. But surely to actually go to such lengths to self abort and put her own life at risk by doing so, what kind of horror must these poor women go through? i myself wouldn't abort a baby, and dont agree with SOME women/girls views where some of them think "oh i can just get rid of it" without a second thought. And who rely on abortion as a form of birth control.
but every abortion comes with a different reason for having it done, and you really cant go round saying that women should keep their pants zipped up, that is a pretty immature point of view, you will find very few people who would agree with you.

this whole thread has really shocked me, and knowing what these poor women have to go through alone is just utterly shocking.

I personally don't believe in abortions but I think this is a great topic. I do believe abortions should be legal so that the women that do choose to abort their baby have a SAFE way of doing it. Rather then trying themselves and harming the child, if it were to be born.

Abortion IS illegal in this country, and I may be naive, but I don't think many people are utilising the methods listed. Geographically, though, we're a very different country to the US. Those who want an abortion can travel to the UK - it's so close you can get return flights for next to nothing - literally nothing sometimes (I got my last flights to London free). I do realise that those who live in most areas of the US are not as close to a different country like we are, so the cost of travelling for an abortion would be prohibitively expensive.