Forums > Debate & Discussby: Nymphadora

Christmas=Not Christian at all (unless you're Catholic)

posted 26th Dec
When you gather around the Christmas tree or stuff goodies into a stocking, you're taking part in traditions that stretch back thousands of years — long before Christianity entered the mix.
Pagan, or non-Christian, traditions show up in this beloved winter holiday, a consequence of early church leaders melding Jesus' nativity celebration with pre-existing midwinter festivals. Since then, Christmas traditions have warped over time, arriving at their current state a little more than a century ago.
Read on for some of the surprising origins of Christmas cheer, and find out why Christmas was once banned in New England.
1. Early Christians had a soft spot for pagans
It's a mistake to say that our modern Christmas traditions come directly from pre-Christian paganism, said Ronald Hutton, a historian at Bristol University in the United Kingdom. However, he said, you'd be equally wrong to believe that Christmas is a modern phenomenon. As Christians spread their religion into Europe in the first centuries A.D., they ran into people living by a variety of local and regional religious creeds.
Christian missionaries lumped all of these people together under the umbrella term "pagan," said Philip Shaw, who researches early Germanic languages and Old English at Leicester University in the U.K. The term is related to the Latin word meaning "field," Shaw told LiveScience. The lingual link makes sense, he said, because early European Christianity was an urban phenomenon, while paganism persisted longer in rustic areas.
Early Christians wanted to convert pagans, Shaw said, but they were also fascinated by their traditions.
"Christians of that period are quite interested in paganism," he said. "It's obviously something they think is a bad thing, but it's also something they think is worth remembering. It's what their ancestors did.








Perhaps that's why pagan traditions remained even as Christianity took hold. The Christmas tree is a 17th-century German invention, University of Bristol's Hutton told LiveScience, but it clearly derives from the pagan practice of bringing greenery indoors to decorate in midwinter. The modern Santa Claus is a direct descendent of England's Father Christmas, who was not originally a gift-giver. However, Father Christmas and his other European variations are modern incarnations of old pagan ideas about spirits who traveled the sky in midwinter, Hutton said.
2. We all want that warm Christmas glow
But why this fixation on partying in midwinter, anyway? According to historians, it's a natural time for a feast. In an agricultural society, the harvest work is done for the year, and there's nothing left to be done in the fields.
"It's a time when you have some time to devote to your religious life," said Shaw. "But also it's a period when, frankly, everyone needs cheering up."
The dark days that culminate with the shortest day of the year ­— the winter solstice — could be lightened with feasts and decorations, Hutton said.



"If you happen to live in a region in which midwinter brings striking darkness and cold and hunger, then the urge to have a celebration at the very heart of it to avoid going mad or falling into deep depression is very, very strong," he said.
Stephen Nissenbaum, author of the Pulitzer Prize finalist "The Battle for Christmas" (Vintage, 1997), agreed.
"Even now when solstice means not all that much because you can get rid of the darkness with the flick of an electric light switch, even now, it's a very powerful season," he told LiveScience.
3. The Church was slow to embrace Christmas
Despite the spread of Christianity, midwinter festivals did not become Christmas for hundreds of years. The Bible gives no reference to when Jesus was born, which wasn't a problem for early Christians, Nissenbaum said.
"It never occurred to them that they needed to celebrate his birthday," he said.
With no Biblical directive to do so and no mention in the Gospels of the correct date, it wasn't until the fourth century that church leaders in Rome embraced the holiday. At this time, Nissenbaum said, many people had turned to a belief the Church found heretical: That Jesus had never existed as a man, but as a sort of spiritual entity.
"If you want to show that Jesus was a real human being just like every other human being, not just somebody who appeared like a hologram, then what better way to think of him being born in a normal, humble human way than to celebrate his birth?" Nissenbaum said.
Midwinter festivals, with their pagan roots, were already widely celebrated, Nissenbaum said. And the date had a pleasing philosophical fit with festivals celebrating the lengthening days after the winter solstice (which fell on Dec. 21 this year). "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born … Christ should be born," one Cyprian text read.




4. The Puritans hated the holiday




But if the Catholic Church gradually came to embrace Christmas, the Protestant Reformation gave the holiday a good knock on the chin. In the 16th century, Christmas became a casualty of this church schism, with reformist-minded Protestants considering it little better than paganism, Nissenbaum said. This likely had something to do with the "raucous, rowdy and sometimes bawdy fashion" in which Christmas was celebrated, he added.
In England under Oliver Cromwell, Christmasand other saints' days were banned, and in New England it was illegal to celebrate Christmas for about 25 years in the 1600s, Nissenbaum said. Forget people saying, "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," he said.
"If you want to look at a real 'War on Christmas,' you've got to look at the Puritans," he said. "They banned it!"
5. Gifts are a new (and surprisingly controversial) tradition
While gift-giving may seem inextricably tied to Christmas, it used to be that people looked forward to opening presents on New Year's Day.
"They were a blessing for people to make them feel good as the year ends," Hutton said. It wasn't until the Victorian era of the 1800s that gift-giving shifted to Christmas. According to the Royal Collection, Queen Victoria's children got Christmas Eve gifts in 1850, including a sword and armor. In 1841, Victoria gave her husband, Prince Albert, a miniature portrait of her as a 7-year-old; in 1859, she gave him a book of poetry by Alfred, Lord Tennyson.
All of this gift-giving, along with the secular embrace of Christmas, now has some religious groups steamed, Nissenbaum said. The consumerism of Christmas shoppingseems, to some, to contradict the religious goal of celebrating Jesus Christ's birth. In some ways, Nissenbaum said, excessive spending is the modern equivalent of the revelry and drunkenness that made the Puritans frown.
"There's always been a push and pull, and it's taken different forms," he said. "It might have been alcohol then, and now it's these glittering toys."
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I have 2 kids & 6 angel babies & live in Arizona
posted 26th Dec
Thanks for the read! We have always called our Christmas tree a yule tree or a solstice tree. I have always been drawn to the pagan traditions and there way of life since I was a little girl. where did you find this?
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I have 1 child & live in California
posted 26th Dec
Quoting Smokey_Taboo:" Thanks for the read! We have always called our Christmas tree a yule tree or a solstice tree. I have ... [snip!] ... I have always been drawn to the pagan traditions and there way of life since I was a little girl. where did you find this?"

msnbc
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I have 2 kids & 6 angel babies & live in Arizona
posted 26th Dec
<blockquote><b>Quoting Nymphadora:</b>" When you gather around the Christmas tree or stuff goodies into a stocking, you're taking part in traditions ... [snip!] ... push and pull, and it's taken different forms," he said. "It might have been alcohol then, and now it's these glittering toys.""</blockquote>




Gotta love the trend of belittling Christians!
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I have 1 child & live in Pennsylvania
posted 26th Dec
Quoting TheNuge:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Nymphadora:</b>" When you gather around the Christmas tree or ... [snip!] ... been alcohol then, and now it's these glittering toys.""</blockquote> Gotta love the trend of belittling Christians!"

Not belittling. Just opening the topic for discussion. I find it interesting that Protestant Christians were so adamantly against the holiday only a few centuries ago, yet claim the holiday exclusively for themselves in modern times.
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I have 2 kids & 6 angel babies & live in Arizona
posted 26th Dec
Quoting TheNuge:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Nymphadora:</b>" When you gather around the Christmas tree or ... [snip!] ... been alcohol then, and now it's these glittering toys.""</blockquote> Gotta love the trend of belittling Christians!"

Why Christians belittle us all the time.
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I'm due October 6th (a boy), have 1 child & live in Perth, Australia
posted 26th Dec
Quoting Nymphadora:" Not belittling. Just opening the topic for discussion. I find it interesting that Protestant Christians ... [snip!] ... so adamantly against the holiday only a few centuries ago, yet claim the holiday exclusively for themselves in modern times."

The piece emits more than a whiff of belittlement.
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I have 1 child & live in Pennsylvania
posted 26th Dec
Quoting The Master:" Why Christians belittle us all the time."

i dont condone that either.
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I have 1 child & live in Pennsylvania
posted 26th Dec
Totally agree with this. I'm a christian, but I don't view Christmas as a christian holiday...in all honesty it has zero to do with God/Jesus in the traditional literal sense. BUT I count it as a kind, loving holiday to participate in if you aren't selfish and if you try to make others happy  
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I have 1 child & 1 angel baby & live in Connecticut
posted 27th Dec
<blockquote><b>Quoting ~*~Modern*Day*Delilah~*~:</b>" Totally agree with this. I'm a christian, but I don't view Christmas as a christian holiday...in all ... [snip!] ... sense. BUT I count it as a kind, loving holiday to participate in if you aren't selfish and if you try to make others happy  "</blockquote>




It is most certainly is a Christian holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. Just like MLK day celebrates MLK.
For those who aren't Christian, it's just a federal holiday to be celebrated however they wish.
I realize that Jesus wasn't born on 12/25', but that is the agreed upon date to celebrate his birth with or without "the party"' the decorations and trading of giving.
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I have 1 child & live in Pennsylvania
posted 27th Dec
Quoting TheNuge:" <blockquote><b>Quoting ~*~Modern*Day*Delilah~*~:</b>" Totally agree with this. I'm ... [snip!] ... but that is the agreed upon date to celebrate his birth with or without "the party"' the decorations and trading of giving."
I've been a christian my entire life, raised catholic etc. I don't count it 100% as a christian holiday because it's origins had nothing to do with Jesus in the first place. Christians took the pagan rituals and turned it into such. I count Easter as more of a christian holiday, however, I most of THAT is based in pagan ritual too lol. You are free to have your opinion, but the bible never mentioned christmas...and it specifically told us not to put up a tree....So I go by that. Though I still celebrate christmas, I just look at it as a good time with family and friends, and to appreciate all the good things in our lives.
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I have 1 child & 1 angel baby & live in Connecticut
posted 27th Dec
<blockquote><b>Quoting ~*~Modern*Day*Delilah~*~:</b>" I've been a christian my entire life, raised catholic etc. I don't count it 100% as a christian holiday ... [snip!] ... christmas, I just look at it as a good time with family and friends, and to appreciate all the good things in our lives. "</blockquote>




So, because Christians saw some cool ways of celebrating and adopted those traditions to celebrate their savior, it's not a Christian holiday?
I like some traditions from other cultures and I've borrowed a LOT of things from Pinterest and Houzz. Does that dilute my own cultural traditions?
In our house we celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas. Is Hanukkah no longer a Jewish holiday because it's somehow diluted by our home and being celebrated by some non-Jews here?

Btw, I'm not being bitchy even though my words may seem so. Just furthering the discussion as this is driving me nuts. Lol
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I have 1 child & live in Pennsylvania
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