re: Christianity still loosing adherents

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" This is what I thought about my former church, until I got involved in leadership... my eyes were opened. ... [snip!] ... son as a pervert (he was inappropriate with church women, some of them girls and there was a conspiracy to cover it up)."

I know we've talked about this before but I'll add it here as well. I had a very similar experience my mom went looking for a new church when I was 14 and she found this awesome place that played rock music and everyone wore jeans. It was all about how "real" and "cool" everyone was. The church had been around for 20 years and had a couple thousand members. It is a part of a type of "chain" of churches all which are pretty big and all of which operate in very similar manners.

I got very involved and was usually at the church 3-4 times a week. However, I was never good enough to be in the "in crowd" so I just kept trying. In every other aspect of my life I was the "good kid" who had never been in trouble and made straight As but not there because I didn't fit the typical mold. I kept trying though and even ended up living with the youth pastor's brother and his family as a nanny. This was a family of 6 kids all of whom were involved in church leadership. Getting that close to the family the corruption started to be revealed. At first I just thought "well everyone is human" but it kept getting worse. I was then molested by the youth pastors brother and he kicked me out of his home. I didn't tell anyone but his whole family turned against me and I was told "blood is thicker than water" when I tried to attend an internship program offered at the church. But for some reason my relationship with the church was like an abusive relationship and I just wanted them to accept me so I continued to go even though I got dirty looks and no one would speak to me. I was even told by a friend who also later left the church that those in the "inner circle" were instructed to stay away from me. The man has since admitted what he did and after saying horrible things about me relentlessly for a couple of years I have yet to get an apology from any of his family. Also if I see anyone still at the church around town they act as if I don't exist.

At first I thought it was just me but looking for support one day I found an entire group dedicated to "refugees" from these churches and the things they do. I used to have hope that things would change but I see now that anyone who proposes a change gets ousted. It's very subtle and many members think that all those that oppose the church are "bitter" and have strayed away from God. I know because I used to think the same thing. It's a vicious and sad cycle and sadly from a lot of what I've read and people I've talked to a very common one as well.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" The two religions do share some terminology and even some theology (monotheism, for instance) but Islam ... [snip!] ... Basically, you can't get to Heaven without Jesus and His sacrifice. NOTHING else gets you there, according to the Bible. "

Of course there are differences between Christianity and Islam. Otherwise it would just be Christianity.

Islam places just as much if not more emphasis on faith as it does on works. Your source of information about the Qur'an is wrong. It does not teach that good atheists can get to heaven. Most Muslims believe that only true believing Muslims will earn god's graces, even though the Qur'an says that good Jews and Christians will be given a special chance to get to heaven.


Basically, you can't get to Heaven without Jesus and His sacrifice. NOTHING else gets you there, according to the Bible.


That's just your interpretation. And you have a track record of making incorrect statements.  

Quoting Leisurely Duchess:" Of course there are differences between Christianity and Islam. Otherwise it would just be Christianity. ... [snip!] ... according to the Bible. That's just your interpretation. And you have a track record of making incorrect statements.  "

I have no such record. Maybe you interpreted what I said, wrongly?  

John 10:1, 9, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber... I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."



Nothing to interpret there. Seems like you just make things more difficult than they actually are.

The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross. Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

1. “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
2. “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)
3. “There is one body and one Spirit …one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4)
4. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
5. “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and find pasture … I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” (John 10:9)
6. Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life,he who believes in Me, though he may die,he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” (John 11:25)
7. Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12)
8. And Jesus said to them,“I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35)

1. “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)
2. “…whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, thatwhoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)
3. “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)
4. “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
5. “Most assuredly, I say to you,he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)
6. “… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son.He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)
7. “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" I have no such record. Maybe you interpreted what I said, wrongly?   John 10:1, 9, "Verily, verily, ... [snip!] ... Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)"

I didn't just twice correct you about Islam?  

Quoting the Bible at me is useless. I know it better than you. And I guess that little paragraph you gave earlier about interpreting the Bible doesn't apply to you.

Nowhere does the Bible say that through faith alone you can gain salvation. Instead:

James 2:24

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (NIV)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (KJV)


lol


I can give you a slew of other passages that support the "faith & works" doctrine. But it's not like that will change your mind or anything.

Even the word "believe" is a verb.... an action. So if you don't have to do anything, then technically you shouldn't have to believe... because believing, in and of itself, is doing something, performing an action, to earn salvation.

Quoting JamieP:" I know we've talked about this before but I'll add it here as well. I had a very similar experience ... [snip!] ... It's a vicious and sad cycle and sadly from a lot of what I've read and people I've talked to a very common one as well. "

I think all churches are started with good intentions but they turn to crap because eventually they must become business minded to continue. People have to hide themselves and pretend, they cannot be real. People use Jesus, the very figure that is preached as the man who sets us free, to put us in chains of guilt and shame. I'm still trying to flush the bitterness out of me.

<blockquote><b>Quoting Leisurely Duchess:</b>" Of course there are differences between Christianity and Islam. Otherwise it would just be Christianity. ... [snip!] ... according to the Bible. That's just your interpretation. And you have a track record of making incorrect statements.  "</blockquote>



Yup this is true. Except we believe that the jews who followed moses alayhi salaatul wasalam at that time (who were 'good' as you put it) and then the christians who followed Jesus alayhi salaatul wasalaam will be in heaven. Not the christians or jews after each new Prophet came.
I assume you know this, but just wanted to clarify for anyone who doesn't.

Quoting Leisurely Duchess:" I didn't just twice correct you about Islam?   Quoting the Bible at me is useless. I know it better ... [snip!] ... slew of other passages that support the "faith & works" doctrine. But it's not like that will change your mind or anything."

You didn't "correct" me on Islam. Besides that, you are one that seems to want to debate and debate and debate some more, until we are having a whole different debate, altogether. I already see your M.O.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" You didn't "correct" me on Islam. Besides that, you are one that seems to want to debate and debate ... [snip!] ... to debate and debate and debate some more, until we are having a whole different debate, altogether. I already see your M.O. "

nope, you got owned. and you didn't respond to the verses which clearly state that works, not just faith, are required.

*eats popcorn* carry on ladies. lol

<blockquote><b>Quoting Jazelle:</b>" nope, you got owned. and you didn't respond to the verses which clearly state that works, not just faith, are required. *eats popcorn* carry on ladies. lol"</blockquote>


Did I ever say it takes ONLY works? Did I ever say it ONLY takes faith?

Without works, faith is dead and vice versa. But you cannot cannot simply "earn" your way to Heaven by doing nice/good things. On that same note, if you are saved, your works reflect that. The Bible clearly states that "you will know them by their fruit". You don't listen to what someone SAYS, you watch what they DO. That is how Christians know other Christians.

If you think that was "getting owned", you have low expectations. LOL

What were we talking about, again? The original OP has been convoluted to the point it's developed into a pissing match.

Anyone's lack of belief or constant pursuance to prove me (or any Christian) wrong, is of no consequence to me.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Jazelle:</b>" nope, you got owned. and you didn't respond to ... [snip!] ... pissing match. Anyone's lack of belief or constant pursuance to prove me (or any Christian) wrong, is of no consequence to me."

Very nicely said  .

Quoting Leisurely Duchess:" These are more recent numbers from the UK, earlier statistics showed shrinking numbers of the younger ... [snip!] ... So what are your thoughts? Is this trend good, is it bad, neither? Any ideas about causes?"

i think it's a bad trend. I do not live in the bible belt and there is no evangelical presence in my community yet the christian religion is present and very positive. They do good works all over the place from the hosiptals to the schools to the mutlitudes of different volunterr activities.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" You didn't "correct" me on Islam. Besides that, you are one that seems to want to debate and debate ... [snip!] ... to debate and debate and debate some more, until we are having a whole different debate, altogether. I already see your M.O. "

You are stupid and suffer delusions of grandeur. Carry on.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" The two religions do share some terminology and even some theology (monotheism, for instance) but Islam ... [snip!] ... Basically, you can't get to Heaven without Jesus and His sacrifice. NOTHING else gets you there, according to the Bible. "

It's both actually.

Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" I have no such record. Maybe you interpreted what I said, wrongly?   John 10:1, 9, "Verily, verily, ... [snip!] ... Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)"

Except the words of John are the least likely to be historically accurate and thus probably not said.