re: Question For Christians

Quoting Jackson 3 + 2:" I am no expert and this may sound really radical I don't know so take it for what it is but I thought ... [snip!] ... God does not expect us to be perfect he knows we cannot be perfect and that is why he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross. "

Everyone just keeps giving me the argument of free will. I understand that very perfectly, that under Christian doctrine everything that we were introduced to as a race was the direct result of our own choices.

However, like I said a few times, I'm not asking why there is sin, or why we have to have free will.

I'm asking why God would create a world into which he KNEW sin would be born into, why he would even create Lucifer if he's supposed to be all-knowing?

Why create he angel that would betray him?

Why would he create a race of people that would fall prey to the schemes of such an angel?

Why allow his son to suffer and die a mortal death if he foresaw everything that led up to it?

The only answer I can come to personally is that he wanted all of this to happen so that his people would fear, love, and revere him.

It's as bad as a husband abusing his wife and saying "You won't find better than me out there, and at least I take care of you. You better love me."

Those are very good questions that I wish I had answers to give you but my only answer is free will because he wants us to choose between life and death. Sorry wish I could help more if I get a better answer I will share it with u.

free will is not the answer. free will does not exist if you place conditions on it. you cannot tell me i can do whatever i want, and then tell me if i DON'T choose to worship you then i'm going to hell. that is NOT free will. there is no real choice there. no one is answering the questions. god knows everything and the bible itself says god created good and evil. had god never created evil, it wouldn't be there in people's hearts to cause others to suffer in the world. the truth of the matter is no christian apologetic can answer this question without making unfounded assumptions.

Quoting Jazelle:" free will is not the answer. free will does not exist if you place conditions on it. you cannot tell ... [snip!] ... the world. the truth of the matter is no christian apologetic can answer this question without making unfounded assumptions. "

What "unfounded assumptions" are you speaking of?

And, your argument against their free will argument is invalid. I can think of 20 instances right now where we know our actions will have negative consequences but we still have the legal right and free will to do them. EVERY CHOICE has conditions placed upon it, whether stated or implied.

Quoting Jazelle:" free will is not the answer. free will does not exist if you place conditions on it. you cannot tell ... [snip!] ... the world. the truth of the matter is no christian apologetic can answer this question without making unfounded assumptions. "

*nods head*

indeed.

Quoting Bangtail:" What "unfounded assumptions" are you speaking of? And, your argument against their free will argument ... [snip!] ... we still have the legal right and free will to do them. EVERY CHOICE has conditions placed upon it, whether stated or implied."

the idea of god "giving" free will is negated if ultimately he only wants us to do one thing. it becomes a farce in a way. it's like being a parent who says, "you can choose to sit down & have dinner or you can get spanked." so - where's the choice?

it's illusory. if god holds the keys to our eternal souls and damns us for making the wrong choice, there is NO choice. there is only his way or eternal damnation.

in real life, we DO have free will -- in some perceived sense of the word, despite being predisposed to certain behaviors based on our psychological/neurological states / backgrounds.

god's free will is a farce though.

and the fact he purportedly planned this entire human drama w/ the morning star becoming lucifer, creating hell, casting out half the angels & making them into demons -- well, it wreaks of a grand human tragedy and is ... nothing more than the most basic part of our arrogance as a species.

nothing about the story sounds remotely like an omnipotent god w/ any actual conception of the future and how it'd play out. truly, it's much more like the greek gods of yore, w/ their conspiracies and betrayals.

*sides eyes all the christians*

<blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" the idea of god "giving" free will is negated if ultimately he only wants us to do one thing. it becomes ... [snip!] ... out. truly, it's much more like the greek gods of yore, w/ their conspiracies and betrayals. *sides eyes all the christians*"</blockquote>


God's free will is the same as any free will; you choose the path you walk, and, by default, you choose the consequences. That is not to say that your life will be awful if you are not a Christian. Hell, I love my alcohol and cigarettes. I will face the consequences later, no doubt.

However, people confuse God with Jesus. God was not the all-loving benevolent being. He had many more human characteristics. He wanted proof that a person loved him and only him. Like you said, it resembles a Greek tragedy.

I see the point of every question presented. Any person with any amount of intelligence would raise these questions. On the same note, anyone who claims to have the answers is full of smurf. I will not try to explain those things I do not understand. The best I can do is to explain what I know, and respect those who disagree. Oh, and point out holes in arguments because I love playing devils advocate (pun totally intended).

Quoting Mara:" the idea of god "giving" free will is negated if ultimately he only wants us to do one thing. it becomes ... [snip!] ... out. truly, it's much more like the greek gods of yore, w/ their conspiracies and betrayals. *sides eyes all the christians*"

exactly. again, i maintain that free will does not exist when it comes to christianity. there is no real choice. follow me or go to hell is NOT a choice. that's more like an ultimatum. if god was really giving me free will, there would be no punishment for choosing not to be a christian. i can do all the "nice" things the bible says to do without believing in some crazy religion. i can name more secular humanists who do good for the world than religious folks.

Because God is a Sadist.

Quoting Mermaid Hathor Elaina-Wed:" Because God is a Sadist."

  You get a gold star.

Quoting Mara:" the idea of god "giving" free will is negated if ultimately he only wants us to do one thing. it becomes ... [snip!] ... out. truly, it's much more like the greek gods of yore, w/ their conspiracies and betrayals. *sides eyes all the christians*"

Thank you Mara. You said everything I believe in ways I wasn't able to. I try to be as "polite" as I can, because ultimately I just want to learn, ya know? But I'm just getting the same answers over and over from Christians. I know they're not all brain-washed cultists, but it's disheartening when all I get is the free will argument and links to websites because they can't come to their own conclusions from their own research.

Quoting Bangtail:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" the idea of god "giving" free will is negated if ... [snip!] ... respect those who disagree. Oh, and point out holes in arguments because I love playing devils advocate (pun totally intended)."

i'm not talking about all-loving -- just the all-powerful god...

still the issue of "giving" free will is at stake. if a god creates us w/ the explicit ability to choose, but only truly wants us to choose one thing, then it's a farce that we even have a choice. that's my point.

sure, we have natural consequences, but that's not what the OP was addressing -- it's the idea that an all-knowing god precludes that there is anything but the future he already knows and ordains, making any of our "free will" moot AND the fact that he only created us to adore / choose him or otherwise suffer eternally again renders the notion of free-will as nothing more than the farce of a puppet-master who wants to screw w/ his creation by making them feel there's a choice when really there's eternal death or his way.


not to mention that jesus and god are the same deity, even though that makes no sense at all - that much has been convolutedly stated w/in the NT.

i certainly don't have the answers any more than the bible does. oh, not true -- i've scientific data on my side, so i've a few more answers than the bible.