re: Dieting vs. Health at Every Size (D&D)

Quoting Rumpelstiltskin:" It's bad..... I'm giggling at Dr. Bacon because now I want Bacon...     I'm awesome at debating tonight!     And the more you explain it the less stupid it sounds... "

Mmmm.... Bacon.... *drool* I love me some bacon! My nutrition response therapy doctor told me that bacon fat was good fat lol. She pro-saturated fat and anti-simple sugars and simple carbs.... but encourages complex carb consumption (brown rice and such)

Yeah, I'm not a giant fan of how the table explains the differences in the two things. The table was created to describe the two in relation to the pursuit of thinness... which may be problematic in explaining the depth of HAES.  

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Mmmm.... Bacon.... *drool* I love me some bacon! My nutrition response therapy doctor told me that bacon ... [snip!] ... to describe the two in relation to the pursuit of thinness... which may be problematic in explaining the depth of HAES.  "

I do agree that we shouldn't only strive to be thin... in fact, my SO gets pissed when I do talk about weight loss. He likes "thick" girls and really doesn't want me to lose much. But, I have a lot of pain in my body and when the weight comes off, the pain is slightly relieved.

But, I'll admit, I want to be fit!


When you look to be thin, you go on crash diets and either end up yo-yoing or simply gaining the weight back. You cannot live on a (crash or fad) diet forever, so you have to train your body to enjoy foods in healthy portions and add more healthy options.


And I don't believe bacon can be good for you... it tastes too good... anything that tastes that good cannot be healthy!!     (I save the bacon grease and heat up foods in it  )

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" The difference with HAES is that you are allowed to eat whatever you deem fit and there are no actual ... [snip!] ... healthier while the HAES group weights had remained constant, they had better blood pressure, cholesterol and such."

Again though, you're assuming that a "diet" restricts calories that a person needs. I find this is rarely the case (except for extreme ones). Case in point, a person may WANT more but that does not mean they are actually hungry. One of the good things in tracking diets (where you right down what you eat) is that you get the chance to distinguish between hunger and boredom. People get the chance to sit back and go "am I actually hungry?"

I think the HAES idea just alienates too many other ideas. I also think it allows more then most people can deal with. Most people think the food they are eating makes them feel good. I think some honest nutritional information is important rather then just "eat it, see what happens." Learning that fiber and protien are good, and that fat and carbs need to be watched allows a person a greater amount of control over what they are eating.

Additionally, guidelines in foods (like eating clean and eliminating much of the processed food) are important, because honestly? Most American's have NO idea whats good for them. Forget weight, they think that McDonalds fish sandwiches are good because it's fish. They are eating out often 5 times a week at greasy and preservative filled fast food places. Ignoring this seems silly. I feel like HAES sometimes pulls back too far. People need guidance, not just a free pass. Lord knows my kids would eat crap 24/7 if I let them eat what they wanted with no guidance, and sadly many American's lack much more knowledge about nutrition then that.

You know I am a big fan of a lot of the HAES ideas (mostly exercise I guess) but I think a 100% hands off approach is horrible honestly. I feel like that is as smart a choice as it would be with anything else. I mean, we don't do hands off for healthy problems. We teach people what is good and what is bad. Striving for health for the sake of health (not weight) is a great idea. However, going "eat what you want, as much as you want, any time you want, and see what happens" seems to be how so many people ended up eating crap food all the time.

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" They do have to train their bodies and that is what HAES does.   They learn how to be in tune with ... [snip!] ... the process. The HAES book by Dr. Bacon is a great resource that provides information and training in the process as well."

I haven't read her stuff yet (so if it's answered there, sorry) but couldn't a big part be our lifestyle now? As in, many a years ago, we did not have a continual source of food. This meant we ate food as we had it and we wanted very high calorie food. Well, that isn't the case anymore, but those instincts still are there. We still want to bulk up because instinctual we don't know when we're getting food again. Add to that the fact that we are less active then we once were, and it's a system for disaster.

It seems like some of these instinctual things may be working against how we live out lives now.

Quoting she nan igans:" Again though, you're assuming that a "diet" restricts calories that a person needs. I find this is rarely ... [snip!] ... as you want, any time you want, and see what happens" seems to be how so many people ended up eating crap food all the time."

I'm guessing that I'm not very adept at explaining the concept.

The book concreted it for me. I got what the core reasoning was.

Quoting she nan igans:" Again though, you're assuming that a "diet" restricts calories that a person needs. I find this is rarely ... [snip!] ... as you want, any time you want, and see what happens" seems to be how so many people ended up eating crap food all the time."

I think I might love you   - that is exactly what I wanted to say only so much more articulate!

I too understand the concept and aims that HAES have and I like them but I don't agree with the delivery and method.

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" I'm guessing that I'm not very adept at explaining the concept. The book concreted it for me. I got what the core reasoning was."

Well I will see about reading the book or looking up some more about it. I like a lot of the ideas I've seen you post about it, I think this one just rubs me wrong.

My reasoning may be that I'm on a "diet." I'm doing weight watchers. I have been for a while and it's been wonderful. It was a slow overhaul of the foods I was eating and the portions, but I have never once been hungry while doing it. I've tracked food so I think about what it is I'm eating, ,and if I'm really hungry, and I've learned to pick nutritious foods over junk and crap. It's something I can see myself doing forever, because it's very flexible. It promotes movement and has no extreme cuts in food. At higher weights/heights you have lots more points, so people are cut down to 1200 calories a day or something.

I don't think this is bad. It requires work, but I think that's good. We SHOULD be aware of what we are putting into our bodies. Just like being aware of exercise not for weight loss but for health. Mind and body. Likewise, we should know what foods are good for us and what aren't so we can mike wise choices.

Quoting Idlehands:" I think I might love you   - that is exactly what I wanted to say only so much more articulate! ... [snip!] ... I too understand the concept and aims that HAES have and I like them but I don't agree with the delivery and method."

lol, thanks.  

I love OP! I think she's an amazing woman who has helped me indescribable amounts with a lot of the ideas she's shared. One of the thigns I love about OP is the ability to discuss ideas without it getting personal or anyone getting upset, haha.

Quoting she nan igans:" Well I will see about reading the book or looking up some more about it. I like a lot of the ideas I've ... [snip!] ... but for health. Mind and body. Likewise, we should know what foods are good for us and what aren't so we can mike wise choices."

I lost 70lbs on weight watchers once... gained it back. Marriage and having a baby helped. Well, I gained more weight after Korbin was born than during pregnancy... but that's when my internal functioning hit the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

I really think I misrepresented the idea of "eat whatever you want" because I didn't include enough background information to the concept. I'm still not sure I will completely get it down but here's a sneak peak lol. Intuitive eating is kind of a treatment protocol of sorts to treat people known as restrained eaters. These people engage in behaviors in which they ignore their bodies internal cues, don't eat when they're body tells them they are hungry and waits until they are overly hungry to eat. Once they get to that point they will not eat until they are full but still restrict the intake of food. They are obsessive about food. They are always thinking about food and such. Then the whole course eventually leads to binge eating and a period of chronic overeating and the cycle starts again.

By helping a restrained eater learn how to eat intuitively, you help relieve the symptomology of the disordered food relationship.... thus end the cycle of restriction and binging and it normalizes their eating pattern. There is a healthy food component to the idea of HAES but it isn't stressed in the beginning because it can inflame the tendency to be a restrained eater. Dr. Bacon actually goes over food that isn't the best for you in her book, but encourages you to skip the chapter until later if it will cause you to focus too much on the food.

Weight loss does happen. I've lost 16 lbs without even trying. And there is a thought that a body might actually eventually reset lower set point weight ranges once the body is nurtured for long enough.

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" I lost 70lbs on weight watchers once... gained it back. Marriage and having a baby helped. Well, I gained ... [snip!] ... a thought that a body might actually eventually reset lower set point weight ranges once the body is nurtured for long enough."

See, my issue is that you are basically doing a diet then. I mean, you're changing your eating habits and it's caused a weight loss. That right there is a diet.

Many other diets claim the same thing. You won't be hungry. You'll retrain you body how to recognize hunger.

And as with anything you have to stick with it for it to work. This is true with exercise. You can't really say "exercise doesn't work because I exercised, got fit, then stopped exercising and I wasn't fit anymore!" Well yeah, lol, you stopped. Thus, something like weight watchers works if you do it. If you stop doing it and go back to what you were doing before, it will stop working. HAES is no exception. If you go from "intuitive eating" and go back to eating crap all day ever day (not pointed at you, that's how I used to eat, hahaha) then any health benefits (including weight loss) will reverse.

Any program only works as long as you keep doing it. HAES is no different in that way then any other diet. Some could claim it's easier to stick with, but it's still the same idea, and wouldn't it then cause weight fluctuations as well?

Quoting she nan igans:" See, my issue is that you are basically doing a diet then. I mean, you're changing your eating habits ... [snip!] ... could claim it's easier to stick with, but it's still the same idea, and wouldn't it then cause weight fluctuations as well?"

It's not a "diet" because it doesn't restrict calories and it doesn't focus on weight loss.

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" It's not a "diet" because it doesn't restrict calories and it doesn't focus on weight loss."

But neither do clean eating or paleo diet. Heck, even weight watchers doesn't technically restrict calories (points plus are not done on calories at all) and even if the idea is to lose weight, that is still a side effect.

The methods and results are the same. Change eating habits. You lose weight. No matter if it focuses on weight loss or not, it's still the same end results, and the methods (changing eating habits) are similar too.

And you can still gain the weight back if you stop doing the program.

Quoting she nan igans:" But neither do clean eating or paleo diet. Heck, even weight watchers doesn't technically restrict calories ... [snip!] ... the methods (changing eating habits) are similar too. And you can still gain the weight back if you stop doing the program."

When she says diets I'm pretty sure she means fad diets or crash diets. Clean eating, and weight watchers train you know what and how much your body needs, where things like "no carb" and "1000 a day calorie" diets restrict you in a way that you cannot continue forever.

Once you start eating carbs again or start eating more than 1000 calories a day, your weight is going to go back up.

Quoting she nan igans:" But neither do clean eating or paleo diet. Heck, even weight watchers doesn't technically restrict calories ... [snip!] ... the methods (changing eating habits) are similar too. And you can still gain the weight back if you stop doing the program."

In research studies, the HAES groups don't show significant weight loss. The weight loss reported is generally low and within their set point weight. Even in the long-term study there aren't weight loss results. Some will lose a little and others don't really lose at all. Their metabolic factors do improve though.

I think anything that involves food intake is related to someone's overall diet.

I google searched the definition of diet lol just to make sure my understanding of the word was "accurate". In that sense, I can see how you would be able to equate HAES to diet.


di·et/ˈdī-it/


Noun:

1. The kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats.
2. A legislative assembly in certain countries.

Verb:
Restrict oneself to small amounts or special kinds of food in order to lose weight: "it is difficult to diet in a house full of cupcakes".
The verb definition involves restriction and weight loss... two tenets that HAES rejects.

Maybe it is just a terminology differential.

Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" In research studies, the HAES groups don't show significant weight loss. The weight loss reported is ... [snip!] ... definition involves restriction and weight loss... two tenets that HAES rejects. Maybe it is just a terminology differential."

See, I guess I get stuck on the first noun definition. That's why I hate when people say "diets don't work, lifestyle changes do." It makes me want to bash my face against the wall because the English Major in my goes "the food you eat *IS* your diet, whatever food that is!"

I guess that's my hang up, haha